| Q:
Dave, for the first time, IT Pros are "unified" worldwide in
sharing value, and in demonstrating integrity,
professionalism, and outreach in their workplace and
communities. You and your remarkable team are the vision
behind this historical mission. With your very heavy schedule,
thank you for taking the time to share your considerable
wisdom and insights in this interview.
A: It's my pleasure. Culminis
has accomplished a great deal in a short period of time
through the hard work of an extraordinary group of dedicated
individuals. It is my honor and distinct pleasure to be their
very humble leader.
Q: You founded a user group in
Charlotte NC and inspired considerable sustained success.
Please provide some history and how did this come about?
A: I was invited to participate
in an advisory capacity as part of a group of IT Pros to
provide Microsoft with guidance related to a "new" program
they were considering called TechNet. All of the people
involved from the IT community were leaders of IT Pro user
groups around the US and Canada except me. I was asked by the
folks at Microsoft to start a user group in Charlotte. I
agreed to start one and decided that the main premise of the
group would be making a difference in the
community.
I showed up at the first TechNet
briefing in Charlotte with a clipboard and a pen and signed up
78 people to my new user group. We held our first meeting 2
weeks later and 55 people showed up. One of my friends who was
an author on network security gave the presentation. That was
the smallest meeting we ever had. Since that time, we have
never seen less than 100 people attend our monthly meetings.
Now, six years later, we average just over 400 people at our
meetings.
Q: Can you detail your key
membership and community outreach programs and some success
stories?
A: From the first day, I was really
serious about making a difference in the community,
particularly with children if I could. I approached the public
schools and found a real need for help there. Their technology
was really poor with outmoded systems, little software and
practically no technology instruction available for either the
children or the teachers. I made an appeal to the members of
my group as well as the companies in the community.
This has been an ongoing process and
has become one of our hallmarks. Over the last five years, we
have been instrumental in getting more than $6,000,000.00 in
hardware and software into the public schools, built over a
dozen labs and changed the lives of over 500,000 children for
the better. We also embraced the homeless and food banks. I
ask my members to bring a donation item to each meeting for an
extra chance to win a door prize. Last year, we had over 50
tons of food and clothing donated to the homeless and the food
banks. Last Christmas, at one meeting, over 3 tons of toys
were donated to the Marine Corps' "Toys for Tots"
campaign.
Q: Which areas of your work are
you most proud of and for what reasons?
A: Making a difference in the
lives of children and those who are in need. No person ever
stands as tall as when they stoop to help a child or someone
in need. It is the essence of who we are and why we are
here...to serve each other.
Q: How did this develop and
lead into Culminis?
A: When I was asked to lead
this organization, there were no employees and our initial
budget was very small - the slate was pretty much open. I saw
an opportunity to harness one of the greatest armies of hope
ever conceived; IT Pros, by their nature want to help people.
It is the essence of what they do. In my user group I saw the
power of what one group could do; if I could bring that power
online with 200,000,000, the results would be earth
shaking.
Q: What is your vision for
Culminis for 2005, 2006 and into the future, and how will you
achieve it?
A: In order for us to achieve
all of our goals and also make a profound difference, we have
to first achieve a level of service and value to our member
organizations and our sponsors. To accomplish this task, we
have to produce solid, powerful programs and services that
make the job of a user group leader easier, enhance the value
of the membership experience in his/her organization, and
create a solid value proposition for sponsors. Additionally,
we have to open the communication channels for IT Pros to
communicate with sponsors and close that loop of communication
for all.
In 2004, we were very busy building an
infrastructure to lay a foundation that we could use later on.
In 2005, we leveraged that foundation and expanded programs
and services into it. At the same time, we have launched
globally. Our programs have matured much more in the US and
our challenge is to leverage those programs and services
globally as fast as possible. Our responsibilities, as well as
our numbers, have grown greatly this year. We are nearing a
half million members in over 2700 organizations and we are now
moving into the academic space. This brings on even more
challenges, but equally powerful opportunities, to make a
difference in the lives of students and teachers. It is an
exciting and challenging time for us. In 2006, we will
continue to expand operations globally and to mature our
programs in the other regions. We have a monumental task ahead
of us but we are confident that we can make a positive
difference.
Q: Describe and explain your
initiatives in the different global geographic regions for
this year. What are your time frames and anticipated
outcomes?
A: Our goals are actually quite
basic and while the numbers may change, the premise does not.
We are here to raise the status of IT Pros, increase
awareness, communication and education of IT technologies, and
through our efforts and the efforts of our leaders, to make a
positive difference in the communities in which we live and
work.
Our time frames are always in flux
mainly because nearly every one we ever set for ourselves, we
achieve much more quickly than anticipated. However, we
conduct all of our operations and programs with solid project
management principles and strive to do everything with the
highest possible quality.
To put things in perspective, we are
simultaneously expanding into Latin America, Europe, the
Middle East, Asia and Canada. As I said, it is a monumental
task and I don't think a lot of people really realize the
enormity of what we have undertaken. Those that do are
incredulous when I tell them I only have 25 people to do this.
They are even more incredulous when I tell them that we built
the initial 250,000 person organization with only 15. As I
said, I am honored to lead an extraordinary group of very
dedicated people.
Q: Who are your partners and
how do they share in the Culminis vision?
A: Microsoft and Intel are our
most high level partners at present. Microsoft, in particular,
has shown great foresight in understanding the vision of not
only bringing the IT world together, but also in embracing the
philosophy of making a difference. That is certainly true of
the Microsoft people we work with in the US and Canada.
However, it is not as well understood in the other regions.
One of my primary tasks these days is getting the message out
about really making a difference; and not in just meeting
satisfaction levels and metrics. I think that eventually, all
of Microsoft will understand and embrace what we are doing.
When you really think about it, if you
don't dedicate your efforts to that approach, you will come
off as just being interested in selling; not in the welfare of
the IT Pros who support you every day or the communities in
which they and you live. We have been blessed to have some
very influential people within Microsoft embrace our vision
for Culminis. I am very grateful to them for investing and
believing in us.
Q: How do you and your Culminis
team plan to make a difference in the workplace and community;
and in academia, industry, and government?
A: First, we are building
valuable programs and services like our SharePoint Portals,
Free Web Hosting, Forums and Speaker's Bureaus around the
world. Additionally, our document library has a large number
of technology presentations and templates related to
organizational functions and operations. All of our services
are free to the organizations that are part of Culminis. You
have to bring the audience under one roof to be able to reach
them all effectively, to learn their needs so you can serve
them better.
Once we mature our programs and
services, expand our operations and reach globally, we are
then in a position to determine the areas and levels of need
and to create opportunities to address those needs. At the
same time, I have been challenging the leaders to reach out to
their communities through their user groups, to enable their
members to make a difference in the lives of children,
teachers and the less fortunate.
Q: User groups have encountered
challenges over the past five years and yet the user group you
founded in NC and Culminis has sustained phenomenal growth.
What are your ten tips for User Group success?
Well, my group is an offline group
which means we meet on a monthly basis. Some of these tips may
not apply to online groups. The list is not in order of
importance or any other kind of sequence. They are all of
importance and have worked for me.
1. Find
a neutral venue for your meetings
If you meet at a
vendor site, it aligns you with that vendor and limits your
appeal to potential members who may not care for that vendor.
It also identifies you with their technology. While that's ok
if you WANT to be defined as "X" group (X=a specific
technology), I have found that an agnostic approach gives you
a much broader base and more universal appeal. My group meets
in a church and it is a great place to meet. The AV equipment
is state of the art; it has High Speed WIFI and free parking!
2. Start
on time and end on time
IT Pros are VERY busy
people and their time is extremely valuable. You want them to
feel that you are sensitive to that and running a tight ship
on schedule conveys that message and respect to them.
3. BELIEVE
in and embrace the organization!
Your members MUST
see passion in your eyes. If you don't have it, it will show
very quickly and your task will be a lot more difficult. If
you are passionate about the group and its mission, it will
come across in a hundred ways and your members will become
infected by your passion and enthusiasm.
4. Seek
out solid committed individuals to help
If you
have followed number 3, they will emerge to you. These people
are the lifeblood of your organization. IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU.
Rather, it is how you can take these motivated people and
raise them up. If you adopt this approach, you will always
have great people there to help and to get things
done.
5. Get
involved in COMMUNITY OUTREACH early on
You can
start by asking members to bring a canned food item or a piece
of clothing to donate to those less fortunate. Find ways to
get involved with schools, homeless shelters, food banks and
senior centers, to positively affect lives in your community.
This point more than any other will help grow and sustain your
organization most effectively. People crave to make a
difference and to be part of an organization that does. Not
only will your numbers grow substantially in a relatively
short period, sponsors will flock to you and the community
will embrace your organization wholeheartedly
6.
Seek out leaders to join you
Your
organization will benefit greatly from the experience and
wisdom of these individuals. You will also grow as a leader
from the association. There is an old saying, "never be afraid
to employ people smarter than you are". I can tell you from
first hand experience that this tactic can pay off for you in
ways you never dreamed of.
7. It's
not about you
It's not about you. It's not about
you. It's not about you.
8. Always
treat your members with respect
As I mentioned
earlier, set a schedule and keep to it. This is just one way
of showing respect. Other ways include soliciting their input
and thanking them for it. Follow-up on the input and use it if
appropriate. If not, let them know why, but always make sure
they know that they are important to you and the group.
9. Mentor
Work
with the young leaders in the organization. Help them to grow
and to flourish as leaders and identify the individuals who
can lead after you have gone. That is one of your primary
responsibilities.
10.
Lead by example
Give back. You must
not expect others to do things that you cannot or would not do
yourself. Become involved in the programs and services that
you are asking others to participate in. Be the one in the
lead. That is your job, remember?
Q: What is the value
proposition for joining the:
a. Culminis
Alliance
We have a
host of services that we have created for Alliance
organizations. There are 31 right now and I invite leaders to
visit the Culminis website (http://www.culminis.com/)
to review them. Beyond that, we are a vehicle to provide
feedback to our sponsors and to have the voices of our leaders
heard in a substantive way.
b. Culminis
Elite
Our ELITE
program is a relatively new program that we are still in the
process of rolling out. In a nutshell, it allows companies
with significant IT Pro populations to create their own, "user
group" and to provide many of the same services and programs
that we provide to the Alliance Members.
c. Culminis
Academics
Like the
ELITE program, we are early in the development process. We are
exploring ways for IT Pros to get started early in their
learning experience and to build their skill sets upon a rich
foundation of learning materials and opportunities.
Additionally, we hope to create portals for integration into
the workplace as well as provide a conduit to the community
through integration with the Alliance program.
Q: Dave, can you comment on
what it is to be an IT Professional?
A: For a long time now, I have
witnessed a continual decline of the status of the IT Pro
through the media. They have been called nerds and geeks in
just about every corner of the globe. It further distresses me
that IT Pros often are satisfied with such
titles.
I believe that IT Pros deserve the
same level of respect as other disciplines. They are high
quality professionals who work diligently to deliver quality
work and are continually studying and learning, on a daily
basis, to keep up with dramatically changing
technologies.
As a corporate CEO, if you come to me
as a geek costing me X dollars an hour, I look at you as a
liability. I want you out of my facility as soon as I can get
you out because you ARE a liability to me. You are
costing me money.
However, if you come to me as a
Technology Professional offering solutions to business process
issues involving IT, you become an ASSET to me. You are
making me money. I want you as part of my
organization and your value to me goes up
tremendously.
I have been encouraging all IT Pros to
see themselves as Solution Architects. Ron Gandiza of my staff
came up with the term and the idea and I believe it is a solid
and profound one. Solution Architects are professionals who
are not only proficient in the technology, but professional in
the understanding of the business practices and premises
driving the technology. Being a certified technology
professional is great. It provides you with an opportunity to
be of value to a business for fixing the ills of networks,
servers and pc's. However, if you combine that ability with
intrinsic business knowledge and understanding, you increase
your value exponentially.
Q: What ten attributes make for
a successful IT Pro?
1.
Openness
2.
Humility
3.
Persistence
4.
Loving
5.
Passion
6.
Confidence
7.
Forgiving
8.
Believe
9.
Trustful
10.
Qualified
I'll discuss all of these
later.
Q: How does Culminis support,
enhance and elevate the status of the IT Pro in the workplace
and in their communities?
A: First we challenge them to
make a difference, by identifying and becoming involved in
community outreach opportunities. We acknowledge those who
step up and make a difference, with public acknowledgements
such as articles publication, recognition letters and
certificates and finally with Thank You programs. They become
"IT Heroes". We also encourage them to move from "Geek" status
(in how they view themselves) to IT Professionals or Solution
Architects. They do this by changing the way they see
themselves first and then expanding their knowledge and
abilities to include understanding and mastery of business
practices (as noted earlier).
Q: Describe your
responsibilities: day-to-day, tactically, and
strategically.
A: My job is to provide a solid
management foundation for those who do the real work of
Culminis to stand upon. My main job, every day, is to find
every possible opportunity to elevate my staff. I work hard to
remove roadblocks and make their jobs easier.
Every day is different. I face a
thousand challenges and decisions every day. Luckily, I am
blessed with the finest group of individuals I have ever had
the honor to serve, my staff and the IT Pros we represent. I
work for EVERYONE.
Q: Who are your key team
members and what can you share about them?
A: All of my staff are key to
me. Each of them are unique and wonderful in a myriad of ways.
Their stories are all tremendously inspiring and humbling. My
tremendous respect for each of them precludes me from sharing
personal anecdotes without their permission, but I can tell
you that I am amazed daily by their intelligence,
professionalism and love for what they do. Each of them has
sacrificed a lot to come to Culminis. All have given up much
more lucrative positions to join me. As you are aware, we are
a sponsored, non-profit organization. We can't offer the kinds
of compensation packages the big companies can. In spite of
that, each of these wonderful people has embraced the vision
of changing the world by making a difference in lives and they
work TREMENDOUSLY hard to make that dream a reality. I am very
humbled in their presence.
Q: You have a most remarkable
history. What ten lessons can you share with others and how
did these lessons come about?
A: Thank you but I don't regard
myself as remarkable at all, just blessed. Hmmm, ten lessons.
Rather than relate personal stuff about me, allow me to offer
some advice based on a life of considerable trial and error
(mostly error) in which I have been supremely fortunate to
have observed and been taught by some great people and how
they lived their lives.
1. Be
open
Open your mind and your heart to those around
you. One of the greatest challenges that we have in life is to
overcome our own prejudices. I am not just speaking of racial
or age or other more obvious ones, necessarily. Those are
great detractors of open thinking, growth and communication
and are hugely important, but I am also speaking of how we
view ourselves. Open your mind to ideas. Open your heart to
love and compassion. Allow yourself to be filled with the
great goodness that these positive emotions can bring. By
doing so, you give yourself a huge boost in your ability to
learn and grow. Martin Luther King had the extraordinary
ability to see the world not as it was, but as it could be.
His life has always served as a shining example to me of how
to be open to everyone and everything around you to expand
your mind and achieve your dreams.
2. Be
humble
This one is tough. In a world where we are
constantly told to achieve, to market ourselves and to claw
the way to the top, this idea seems to run contrary to the
"natural" order. However, I can tell you that you will achieve
everything in life if you can help enough other people get
what they want and not care who gets the credit. It is not
about you. You are not here to have dominion over others, to
rule anyone or wield power. You are here to serve. This was
Einstein's answer to the question of "Why are we here? He was
a great deal more intelligent than I am...
3. Persistence
Nothing
is as powerful as a person who never gives up. You can and
will achieve your dreams if you never let them go. Look at
Lance Armstrong. In spite of overwhelming odds that he would
even survive, he kept up his drive to achieve his dream and
won the Tour de France 7 times.
4. Loving
This
is the most important of all. In all of your dealings with
your family, your friends and your peers, keep an open and
loving heart. Not only is it a good thing to do, it sets the
tone for open and honest communications. It raises your
visibility in the eyes of those around you and increases their
respect for you immeasurably. This is not something that you
can fake. Either you embrace it or you don't. If you try to
fake it, it will be seen immediately. Change your heart first
and you can then change your life.
Another
extraordinary sidebar to conducting yourself from this premise
is that it is VERY hard to be depressed. You begin to see the
good in everyone around you. Andrew Carnegie at one time had
more millionaires working for him than any one in the world.
When asked why that was the case, he said, "I'm a gold miner".
Puzzled, the interviewer said, "You made your fortune in oil.
How can you call yourself a gold miner?" Mr. Carnegie replied,
"When you work with people, it is a lot like mining for gold.
You do not look for the dirt. You look for the gold." There is
gold in every one of us. If we are open to looking for it, we
will find it. However, you can not see it without a loving
heart.
5. Passion
This
is a very important trait for a leader. I discussed it earlier
but it is worth revisiting. Passion is one of the most
positively contagious conditions a human can experience. It is
the seed that grows great ideas and delivers on wonderful
promises. As Henri Frederic Amiel said, "Without passion man
is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which
awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its
spark."
6. Confidence
We
all have up and down days. It is really tough to be up all of
the time. I have found that on those days that it is hardest,
I benefit from seeing myself at my best. Full of energy and
passion, loving what I do and those around me. This image
always helps me to get off my butt and get things moving in a
positive and productive way. I had a wonderful teacher early
in life named Lawton Addington who once said to me, "Success
is made in cans and Failure is made in can'ts". That simple
saying stayed with me and inspires me even today, after all
these years.
7.
Forgiveness
First, Forgive
Yourself. ALL of us do things that we regret, are
ashamed of or just embarrassed about. While they may not seem
in retrospect to be that serious, each of us carries around
that baggage day to day. That weight can pull you down, reduce
your effectiveness, create fears and limit your ability to
succeed and to inspire others. Consequently, the first thing
you have to do is to sit down with yourself and have a frank
discussion about who you are, where you are and how you got
there. You are who you are through the experiences that you
have been through. That includes the mistakes. Drop the
baggage! Forgive yourself and start every day with a clean
slate. In fact, practice this on an hourly basis if you have
to. You will find that a remarkable thing will start to
happen. You will find yourself making fewer and fewer mistakes
as your confidence grows and you will begin to achieve things
you never dreamed you could achieve. John Steinbeck said, "It
is the nature of man to rise to greatness if greatness is
expected of him." You have to expect it of yourself before
others will look to you for it.
Second,
Forgive Others. This is another tough one. It
is easy to be angry and to hold grudges. Well, I want to
challenge you to take a tougher and higher road. Forgive
EVERYONE who has ever wronged you...and do it on a continuing
basis. Yes it is tough, but I can tell you from personal
experience that if you can do this, it will elevate you in
ways you can't begin to imagine.
In January
of this year, I was sitting at a table in Prague. At the table
with me were some of my fellow Microsoft MVPs. On my right
were two individuals and on my left were two more. The
individuals on my left were Arab and Israeli, respectively. On
my right were individuals from Russia and the Czech Republic,
respectively. The very fact that we were all together at one
table was remarkable enough but here at this table were
individuals who are regarded as mortal enemies. However, there
was no animosity between any of us. All of us were laughing
and sharing information, enjoying each other's company and
deepening friendships. Much of the anger and acrimony that we
see in the media is fostered by individuals who have lost the
ability to forgive. That is a travesty. Without forgiveness,
there is no hope for mankind.
8. Believe
First,
in yourself. There is no limit to accomplishment if you truly
believe that you can accomplish something. There are countless
examples in the history of the human condition where
individuals have overcome unbelievable odds and succeeded in
the face of experts who said it could not be done.
Second, in
the value of others. Every person is valuable. As you go
through life, there are a multitude of individuals who support
you, interface with you and serve you on a regular basis. Each
of them from your significant other to the waiter/waitress who
served you lunch today are valuable, caring and intelligent
people who have value. Believe in the value of others and it
will serve you well. Believe in a higher purpose for your
life. We are all here to achieve that purpose and it is your
job to seek it out. Sometimes it will find you but trust me,
it is there. You are a unique individual of great value here
to achieve great things. These are defined by your opportunity
and circumstance. Seize the opportunity every day and make the
most of it.
9. Trust
Another
tough one. It is our nature to be suspicious and distrustful.
This is largely because we have allowed others to run our
lives. That statement may surprise you. You say, "I run my own
life!" I say that every time you lose your temper, distrust
another person or allow yourself to hate someone because of
the color of their skin, their political affiliation, place of
birth or religious conviction (or lack of); you have
surrendered control to someone else. You have given over
control of yourself to those you malign, hate, suspect etc.
Only YOU can control how you feel, think and act. Take
responsibility for your own actions, your thoughts and your
life. You cannot be a leader of others if you do not have
control of yourself.
10. Qualified
As
I discussed earlier, it is great to be certified on a
technology. It shows that you have done the work and persisted
to be the best you can be. I encourage IT Pros to also learn
business processes and keep their technology skills current
and sharp. This also includes sharing your expertise and
mentoring others to raise the quality of ALL IT Pros. You
elevate yourself when you lift up others.
Q: What key events in your life
were defining moments and why?
A: The day I became a Christian
because it gave purpose and value to my life in ways I never
dreamed of and is still doing so after almost 40
years.
The birth of my children because it
filled me with the awesome responsibility I now hold in my
hands. Those events created a humble spirit of service within
me that had been missing to that point.
The day that I lost everything that I
owned in a business deal and had to start my professional life
over at age 40. That humbling experience taught me the value
of humility, love and forgiveness. It was one of the best
things that ever happened to me in a lot of ways.
The day that I married my wife who has
been my best friend and greatest supporter (NOT an easy
task).
The day I escaped death on a
motorcycle and the two+ year recovery period. Because, again,
more lessons in humility, forgiveness and faith.
Q: Dave, just one of your major
strengths is strong leadership. This comes across repeatedly
when speaking with others. How would you define leadership,
what are the top ten attributes of good leadership and how can
they be utilized?
On this one, I don't need ten. Only
one attribute is most important for a leader. If you master
this one, you have to have mastered all of the
others.
Give yourself away.
To do this, you have to divest
yourself of that huge ego that you have been cultivating all
of these years. It is not about you. It is about how you can
lead others to achieve more than they knew they could achieve.
It is about leading people to self realization and awareness.
It is about changing lives in a positive and powerful way. It
is about making a difference. To do these things, you must
master all of the other things I have discussed and live your
life in a new and powerful way.
Live for others, not for
yourself.
Character has been defined as what you
do when no one is looking. In large part that is true. It is
saying that who you are in secret is who you really are. I am
challenging the leaders in the world to be who they really are
no matter where they are. To do that, you must divest yourself
of the negative baggage and poor habits you have been building
and carrying around all of your life.
The good news is that YOU CAN DO IT
and when you do, the rewards will be tremendous for you and
those you lead.
Q: What are the five biggest
challenges and how will they be resolved?
A: Overcoming suspicion has
been a major one. We are truly about trying to make a positive
difference in the world and we have been attacked many times,
sometime very aggressively. The only thing we can do is to
continue to work as hard as we can to help everywhere we can.
One of the nicest things that was ever said to me by a manager
at Microsoft was, "Dave, I have met with you on multiple
occasions, heard you speak and listened closely to your words.
In every case, I am convinced that all you want to do is the
right thing".
She is correct.
Q: Choose five topics of your
choosing and providing commentary.
A: I really only have one other
topic that I would like to mention if you don't
mind.
I would like to say something about
how Culminis got started.
A couple of years ago, Microsoft
rounded up the leaders of a dozen groups in the US and Canada
to embark on an experiment to develop a way to reach out to
the IT Pro community. I was one of those chosen to
participate.
We all met in Redmond and I was struck
by the level of quality and character of the people I was
honored to be a part of. These individuals were the leaders
that Microsoft had brought together to try out the experiment
on. Every one of them were high quality professionals and I
was humbled and honored to be part of them. They are listed on
our website and honored as the people who are responsible for
Culminis coming in to being. As we have grown and moved out in
to other regions, I have used the model of this first
"Council" to create like bodies in each of the regions. We
have been fortunate to find very similar individuals in the
regions around the world and have made them advisors, as well.
The role models of the original Culminis board has been very
beneficial to our success and continued growth. I want to
thank those original members of the IT Pro Council for their
leadership, support and advice. They have been
invaluable.
Q: If you were doing this
interview, what three questions would you ask and what would
your answers be?
A: I can't think of anything
that has been missed. You have done an outstanding job with
your questions.
Q: Dave, you are making history
with Culminis. We thank you for taking the time to do this
interview and sharing your deeply considered insights, valued
wisdom, substantial history and considerable experience with
our audience
A: I am deeply honored to have
this opportunity to have the Culminis message broadcast and
humbled by the awesome opportunity and responsibility we have
before us. I greatly appreciate your time and effort and I
thank everyone reading this for their time and attention. It
is my hope that something that I or someone at Culminis has
said or done will positively change someone's life and inspire
them to reach out and change other lives.
Let's make a difference.
http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=414458&rl=1
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